Assisted Dying

[niemeyjt]

I think a palliative care service that dreamed up the "Liverpool Care Pathway" needs a radical reform - killing someone by denying them fluids - however well drugged up they are - needs a morality reset more than money.

[Pathca]

The Liverpool pathway was good if used properly,but sadly sometimes it wasn’t which were the cases that got the publicity
The Liverpool pathway hasn’t actually been used now for well over 10 years having been replaced by more individualised EOL care plans

[MAD87]

@exile I was talking about home palliative care. Another cousin from the same family is having home care. Perhaps quality depends on the region.

[Blaze]

One of my cousins in the UK died at 97 after some significant palliative care, still compos mentis and supported by her family.

That was like my father. He died at home after excellent palliative care and was completely compos mentis. He wouldn't have wanted his death to be hastened - he told me that he still had the instinct to want to live, not to die.

There are many reasons why a person might want to terminate their life and as Pathca says, there is often enough medication in the house for them to do it themselves. But taking your own life is one thing but having someone else do it for you is another.

I have mixed feelings about legalising assiste dying because of the risk of abuse. What about patients with dementia who cannot decide anything for themselves ? Who writes a will saying "if I go batty, I want to be bumped off" ? There are any number of conditions that could "merit" assisted dying, but who has the right to decide who will live and who will die ? It's hard enough turning off life support for incurable cases.

[niemeyjt]

who has the right to decide who will live and who will die ?

Doctors in France, certainly will issue DNRs to patients - as do/did those in UK

[Blaze]

who has the right to decide who will live and who will die ?

Doctors in France, certainly will issue DNRs to patients - as do/did those in UK

I know that but that wasn't quite what I meant. A DNR is likely to be well beyond the point at which someone might ask for termination of their life. I'm also well aware that doctors sometimes have to make choices - again, not the same thing as asking someone to put an end to your life. There's a very fine line and bringing in something which could have legal consequences could seriously affect how patients are treated.

[Pathca]

DNR is not the same as assisted dying. You can be DNAR but still recieving active treatment

[exile]

This is from a Swiss medical practitioner:

Quite frankly, I fail to see any merit in the arguments put forward by the naysayers who claim that by passing the bill Britain will be overwhelmed by a tsunami of rich elderly relatives being bumped off and “inconveniently handicapped” people being forced to top themselves. Switzerland has a much broader “assisted suicide” law than the UK bill and Switzerland has not seen any of the doom laden scenarios put forward by the UK bill’s opponents.



What, I think, has not been considered in the UK debate are the data from Dignitas itself (Dignitas is the service that makes assisted suicide possible). To avail yourself of the service you have to sign up to Dignitas and Dignitas say that the vast majority of those who sign up never use the service - but they have the peace of mind knowing that a swift and painless exit is there if they need it (BTW Switzerland also has pretty good palliative care).



Finally, I once was part of a team that managed a patient with metastatic cancer (I forget what the primary was). The patient had metastases to the brain, liver, bone, lung (and elsewhere) and was semi-conscious, in unimaginably unbearable pain despite huge doses of opiates, the patient’s heart would regularly stop and we would regularly restart it (the patient’s attending oncologist refused to write a DNR order - despite pleas from the family). I will never forget the look the patient’s relatives gave us when we turned up, yet again, to resuscitate the patient, as they begged us to “let the patient go” Yet legally we couldn’t do otherwise. It was then I realised that - sometimes - letting a patient die IS good medicine and I resolved never to let myself get into that situation as a patient. The story does have a (sort of) happy ending - suffice to say we eventually did manage to “let the patient go” To the relief and thanks of the family.



No-one, I mean no-one should ever have to go through what that patient and that patient’s family went through!

[manonthemoon2]

One of my cousins in the UK died at 97 after some significant palliative care, still compos mentis and supported by her family.

That was like my father. He died at home after excellent palliative care and was completely compos mentis. He wouldn't have wanted his death to be hastened - he told me that he still had the instinct to want to live, not to die.

There are many reasons why a person might want to terminate their life and as Pathca says, there is often enough medication in the house for them to do it themselves. But taking your own life is one thing but having someone else do it for you is another.

There are any number of conditions that could "merit" assisted dying, but who has the right to decide who will live and who will die ? .....

The person themselves?

[manonthemoon2]

No-one, I mean no-one should ever have to go through what that patient and that patient’s family went through![/color]
[/quote]

No they shouldn't, sometimes, and I think we can agree, pain relief doesn't always take away unbearable pain. These days I think that is wrong.

If someone with the right mind, who won't get better, is in intolerable pain, then let them have the choice.